Dominions 4 Teasers

K · Post by K » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:37 pm

I'd probably include the various cheap one-path armors and shields as good things to blow gems on when you only have a point in a path. Mages not dying to the first volley of arrows or fliers on attack rear is a pretty decent thing to spend gems on.

That's why a Shroud of the Battle Saint is good even without a Bless. At worst, it's Prot 9 for zero encumbrance.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:27 pm

Llamaserver updated to Dom4

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:03 pm

Victor Vermis wrote: Given enough arrows, B9N9E4-blessed giants CAN be killed.

RIP 163 dead pygmies =(

Shatner · Post by **Shatner** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:47 am

An impressive display, though one thing to keep in mind is that those giants (unlike the LA variety) have an actual weakness to fire making those innumerable fiery lawn darts all the more effective.

Negative resistance + lots of attacks = huge damage output

K · Post by K » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:20 am

I don't understand the people flipping out over the Blood Bless.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:55 am

K wrote:I don't understand the people flipping out over the Blood Bless.

Yeah, it's actually not that good. N9E9 Niefel Giants are a lot tougher.

-Username17

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:11 pm

Well, they would be, what with N9 and E9 blesses both contributing to toughness. A B9 bless is supposed to make you more deadly, so in theory B9N9 Giants should die more but kill more.

But yeah, massed cheap archers, skelespam or pumped MR on your mages all seem like generally available ways to fight a B9 Bless.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:25 pm

Red_Rob wrote:Well, they would be, what with N9 and E9 blesses both contributing to toughness. A B9 bless is supposed to make you more deadly, so in theory B9N9 Giants should die more but kill more.

But yeah, massed cheap archers, skelespam or pumped MR on your mages all seem like generally available ways to fight a B9 Bless.

I meant "tougher" in terms of being good at winning, rather than just being hard to kill. Blood blesses are really really good at killing evokers. It's very difficult for a mage to survive enough MR checks to survive killing their cost in sacred troops. But they aren't very good at anything else.

Blood Blessing makes you kill more enemies, but the blood vengeance kills only work if enemies are killing your sacreds, so it doesn't improve your "shock" capability. The end result is that for purposes of expanding against enemies, it's a lot like you didn't have a capstone bless at all. Indeed, it's actually worse than that, because Blood Vengeance also reflects your own friendly fire, which increases the casualties you suffer against indies. Blood Vengeance sacreds are simply bad at expansion when compared to taking any other defensive or offensive maximum bless.

Note that the same basic realities of fighting independents apply to fighting province defense. Since they don't get away if defeated and respawn if they win, it doesn't matter how quickly or thoroughly you kill them save the extent to which it keeps them from killing your dudes. So killing more province defense units if and only if they take out some of your sacred troops involves you doing rather poorly in an attrition war.

-Username17

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:41 am

And yet, not a single person on the Desura forums can figure out what you just wrote or why it matters, somehow.

K · Post by K » Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:22 am

Ikeren wrote:And yet, not a single person on the Desura forums can figure out what you just wrote or why it matters, somehow.

The Desura forums are loaded with people who play deathmatches on tiny maps. They'll even admit this, but somehow won't notice that the game is very different on a map with 15 provinces and one enemy than on a map with 200 provinces and six enemies.

I mean, they have a serious argument about how level 2-3 Evocations not stopping Blood Bless jaguar warriors is a seriously unbalancing issue.

This shows that they really are only playing a style where no one does much research and jumps into battle early with everything because all of the land is gone, and that's just not the same game as regular play. They'd never notice that not winning territory faster than other Blesses is actually a huge weakness even if you get the special power to sometimes kill evokers on both sides who don't have extra MR. They don't ever use the powerful middle-end magic that wins battles hard without direct damage. They don't even see a game where your enemy might have be afraid to kill his own mages with missed evocations and other DD spells.

Also, Dominions 4 is not Dominions 3 and a lot of people don't get that yet. The experts of Dom3 have proven to have a lot of obsolete experience.

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:52 am

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=361624#361624

I am going AI, as I lost basically all my mages demonstrating that I have no idea how one beats sacred giants.

I also have no idea how to beat sacred giants. Let's start a conversation in another thread about beating sacred giants.

So, I'll be honest. my playing of Dom4 is mostly me taking sacred Giant nations, throwing on a strong bless, and then backing them up with various battle magic and destroying armies of hundreds, and then doing analysis of the few battles I lose. Which are usually "Swarmed 500 troops + 10-20 mages, and they beat my 6 giants. Next time I send 12 giants and a couple extra mages and win without casulties."

K · Post by K » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:00 am

I also have no idea how to beat sacred giants. Let's start a conversation in another thread about beating sacred giants.

Well, the problem comes down to the fact that few people have default counters to sacred giants. You are going to need to use some specialized troops and/or some specific magic.

Single target spells work wonders. Even something like an Ice Pebble Staff spamming Numbness can turn giants cutting through chaff into giants dying to chaff. The list of these spells is long, but the problem is that they come with some research. Early contenders are things like Numbness and Paralyze, but even old favorites like Mind Burn can be dramatic if you brought enough mages.

The next is specialty troops. Crossbowmen can do the trick in enough numbers, but if the armor on the giants is too good or they are using one of the many good ways to foil missiles, then its over. There are a few other nation-specific units that work well too.

The third is basic thugs. There are a lot of specialty weapons that work pretty well, but tossing down some AP or AN damage on a high Strength unit is often enough to do the trick. The issue is usually surviving a few hits from a giant.

Dominions really is about focusing on tactics rather than doing everything. The guy who decided that crossbows are his national strength really needs Fire and Air because those really synergize. The guy who wants to use Earth buffs needs to be prepared to make Blood Stones. The guy who wants to use a Fear strategy needs to be prepared to make Skull Standards and summon Demon Knights.

This means that it's probably more productive to say "What's your nation?" and then design a tactic from there.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:26 am

Sacred Giants live in a topsy turvy world. Against them barbarians with greatswords are good, and legionaires with spears are useless. You need to hit really hard to make them feel it, and they will go through your medium armor and tower shields like they weren't even there.

You're going to outnumber them, both in absolute terms and on the line. So your attacks should mostly hit. It's not realistic to expect your soldiers will not die when hit (even with a shield parry), the Garmhirding does a base of 31 damage with a fucking slashing weapon. So your main defense is... defense.

So basically take your normal troop evaluation system and throw it in the garbage. You are looking at troops from the standpoint of:

Headline damage.
Defense (without shield)
Morale

In that order. Any other stats they have basically don't mean very much. So your main troops are Barbarians and Heavy Cavalry. It's weird.

-Username17

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:29 pm

Does anyone have any idea why my Skrattir would be defaulting to casting Slime instead of the scripted Breath of Winter?

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:20 pm

Red_Rob wrote:Does anyone have any idea why my Skrattir would be defaulting to casting Slime instead of the scripted Breath of Winter?

The targets are cold-resistant?

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:53 pm

Isnt Breath of Winter the Cold Aura + Cold Resistance?
If so, no idea...

Edit:
Wait, had your Skratti an Rimeberg Hauberk (spelling?) equiped?

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:42 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:The targets are cold-resistant?

Korwin wrote:Wait, had your Skratti an Rimeberg Hauberk (spelling?) equiped?

Nope and nope. Breath of Winter is the aura, I can't see why they wouldn't cast it but none of them did - they all defaulted to Slime instead. Weird.

K · Post by K » Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:21 pm

First, the basic questions:

1. Did you have Breath of Winter researched?

2. Did you have high enough paths to cast it?

Then the harder ones:

3. Was it one of your first 1-2 spells in the spell order?

4. What was your fatigue when you cast it?

5. Was anyone nearby when you cast it?

6. Were you within enemy range when the spell was cast?

7. What other spells were cast on the units? Items worn?

8. What other research did you have done?

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:19 pm

Hmmmm. Yes, it was researched and castable, third spell in the order with fatigue <50 each time. What could have been an issue was the Seithkona stood next to them on buffing duty. If the targeting AI saw a friendly with no Cold Res in the danger zone that might have put it off.

Thanks for that, I hadn't considered friendly fire. I'll try scripting [Attack one turn] before the Breath and see how that works out.

K · Post by K » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:31 pm

Red_Rob wrote:Hmmmm. Yes, it was researched and castable, third spell in the order with fatigue <50 each time. What could have been an issue was the Seithkona stood next to them on buffing duty. If the targeting AI saw a friendly with no Cold Res in the danger zone that might have put it off.

Thanks for that, I hadn't considered friendly fire. I'll try scripting [Attack one turn] before the Breath and see how that works out.

The AI also sometimes makes a threat assessment where it will prioritize attacks and summons if it feels that you face overwhelming opponents.

K · Post by K » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:43 am

So I've seen a few mentions of "quests" like the one quoted below. Anyone have a list of them or even seen one yet?

You get an event saying an ancient temple has been found and suggesting you send a mage to investigate. The temple is a site that generates 1 pearl per turn. For me at least, the first dusk mage I sent triggered a new event cursing a lot of units. I left him there a few turns and nothing happened. Immediately when I sent in another dusk-mage, the final mummy event happened.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:21 am

I have definitely seen them. They're pretty cool, but not usually much of a big deal.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:37 pm

http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4 ... mer-la-man

I've done the second of my Primers, this one for LA Man. However, it's not getting as much traction because, frankly, I've found LA Man to be pretty one-dimensional.

You really just have one mage for this nation. It's not a bad mage, but if you're recruiting anything but a Magister Arcane now you're either pursuing a very specific strategy or you're doing something wrong.

Shatner · Post by **Shatner** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:33 pm

Nice guide, Zinegata. I enjoyed it along with the LA Ulm one you posted earlier.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:26 am

LOL, Shatner, so YOU organized that game in desura?

I'm tempted to post some quick notes on MA Ulm now XD.